In Defense of Life: “Formed in Secret”
…but now revealed.
Eleven years ago while giving an anesthetic for a ruptured entopic pregnancy (at eight weeks gestation), I was handed what I believe was the smallest living human ever seen. The embryonic sac was intact and transparent. Within the sac was a tiny human male swimming extremely vigorously in the amniotic fluid, while attached to the wall by the umbilical cord. This tiny human was perfectly developed, with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes. It was almost transparent, as regards the skin, and the delicate arteries and veins were prominent to the ends of the fingers. The baby was extremely alive and swam about the sac approximately one time per second, with a natural swimmer’s stroke. This tiny human did not look at all like the photos and drawings and models of embryos which I had seen, nor did it look like a few embryos I have been able to observe since then, obviously because this one was alive. When the sac was opened, the tiny human immediately lost his life and took on the appearance of what is accepted as the appearance of an embryo at this stage of life.
Paul E. Rockwell, M.D., Director of Anesthesiology, Leonard Hospital, Troy, New York (Petition to U.S. Supreme Court, October, 1972. Markle v. Albele, 72-56,72-730, p. 11.)
Baby at Seven Weeks
From: Images of Fetal Development
* * * * * * *
More than half (62%) of the reported legal induced abortions were performed during the first 8 weeks of gestation; 88% were performed within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.
The American Pregnancy Association: Fetal Development: First Trimester
MedicineNet: Fetal Development Pictures Slideshow: Month by Month
Nothing has been as damaging to our cause as the advances in technology which have allowed pictures of the developing fetus, because people now talk about that fetus in much different terms than they did fifteen years ago. They talk about it as a human being, which is not something that I have an easy answer how to cure.
Harrison Hickman, 1989 conference of the National Abortion Rights Action League.
* * * * * * *
After I finished this post, last night I came across one by La Shawn Barber: Abort-able; she briefly describes abortion procedures at various stages of development of the child and then posts some of Lennart Nilsson’s classic and beautiful photographs of the child within the womb at corresponding weeks of pregnancy.
My first post on life: In Defense of Life: An Unalienable Right.
Crossposted to J’s Cafe Nette.
__________
H/T:
Rockwell quote: Abortion: Murder of the Masses by Meredith Joy Hibbard
Photo & Hickman quote: Priests For Life.
Thanks to RWY for the link to the Fetal Development Pictures Slideshow.
[1]
Excellent post, INC.
That quote from Harrison Hickman makes me so angry. It takes a true darkness to be able to speak words like his. His soul must be so rotted.
[2]
A beautiful “gauzy” baby picture fronting your post, INC. When I look at it, “mystery of life” questions emerge.
If more faces were put out there on these unborn lives, I think people would find it more difficult to impersonally discard them like they were nothing but sub-human packages of divided cells.
[3]
Thanks, Mary!
Jan, I think that is one reason why informed consent laws are so important. People find out and see the truth about the preborn child.
[4]
Oh, and Mary, I so agree with you about Hickman. There is a darkness of soul there.
[5]
If people in the RTL community truly believe it is murder as their claim it is, then why do they oppose incarcerating the mother along with the doctor? As a matter of fact, shouldn’t it be treated as pre-meditated murder an apply capital punishment?
[6]
I know women who have had abortions, and I can tell you…..it kills not one person, but two. They never seem to recover. Before the procedure their attitude about it is one thing, and after it is another. A lifetime of heartbreak follows. It is amazing what stories people will tell a 16 year old pregnant girl who refuses abortion- I heard both sides of the story- the “good” and “bad”, but those “good” stories changed over time, every time. One resource that is simply invaluable is the pregnancy center in my town. It is run by Christian women and men dedicated to life. They have ultrasound machines so women contemplating abortion can see the baby. They have counseling, they have all kinds of donated items like food, diapers, and clothing. I never used their services, but have recently been considering becoming a volunteer there after hearing so many wonderful stories about the lives saved.
[7]
Bernard Nathanson, M.D., a cofounder of NARAL, is now an advocate for life. He was recently interviewed by The Interim, March 2009:
Quote from Concerned for Life.
[8]
Great job, INC, as usual.
I have to run, but I will add my thoughts to your post later this afternoon.
[9]
The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act signed into law by President Bush states that “Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.” According to many – and I agree – it is infanticide, the why fines or a couple of years in jail for the doctor. What about the mother who sought to the procedure? Why does she escape accountability for her actions?
[10]
Here is the thing I don’t understand about our justice system- when a pregnant woman is murdered, the perp is charged with double murder….is that only because the baby was assumed to be wanted? Does being a wanted child make it a human and not a fetus? How come a woman cannot be charged with murder if that same baby at the same gestation was aborted?
[11]
The woman should be held accountable right along side the doctor.
[12]
Mary, there’s an incredible logical dissonance in that law. The pro-abortion people cannot admit the facts of what is happening in an abortion, because then any moral cover to use in their propaganda would be gone.
[13]
Good point, Mary, about the murder of a pregnant woman being charged as a double homicide…a good example of that would be the Lacy Peterson murder.
There is a lot of rationalization that goes on in the interpretation of the “law,” sometimes!
[14]
JustMary
I have no problem is informing women. As matter of fact, this presentation is good as far as changing people’s heart and minds. However, this presentation still does not address public policy issues. Still does not address the sticky subject of how do you implement the laws. The devil is always in the details.
[15]
The same blog I mentioned above, Concerned for Life, also has this quote from Dr. Nathanson from The Hand of God:
(My italics and bold emphasis).
[16]
Great post, INC.
I look at the unborn child and think that God has a purpose for that person as he does for each of us who breathe on our own.
Thanks for your insight.
[17]
Thank you, mullet!
[18]
chek, once you become pro-life, then we’ll talk. Right now my take is that you just like to throw up objections to obscure the reality of abortion and avoid facing the truth about abortion.
You know full well, because I and others have told you (numerous times, I might add), about all of the many ways that pro-life advocates have fought and worked on all fronts to save the lives 0f the preborn and to help their mothers.
[19]
Even Palin recently admitted at a RTL speech that she contemplated having Trig’s pregnancy terminated twice. Once when she found out she was pregnant and then again when she found out that Trig would have down syndrome. Again, if she truly believed it is murder then why even conteplate terminating the pregnancy? This is the logical dissonance in the RTL movement. On one hand there is lots of emotional, inflammatory language about murder as in this thread and the other hand there is a reluctance to punish the woman who is the one who seeks the doctor and not the other way around. Why?
[20]
Jan
I think most cases – like the Peterson case – involved babies that were past the point of viability. Once that point is reached, it is pretty much a black and white issue.
[21]
Heartbreaking description from Dr. Rockwell. Always, always missing from any conversation by abortion advocates is the question protecting the rights of the fetus/embryo/child – by definition the most vulnerable of human forms.
[22]
Right now my take is that you just like to throw up objections to obscure the reality of abortion and avoid facing the truth about abortion.
You are not telling me anything I don’t know. Nothing in this thread is the case for pushing the HLA or other laws banning all procedures at all stages. Until you address the policy details, this is good at changing hearts and minds. It is pure emotionalism.
[23]
My Great-Grandma was born at 6 months and weighing 1 pound……in 1898. They put her in an incubator made of bricks. She lived well into her 80’s. Viability is not so black and white.
[24]
chek, it’s science and truth. If that elicits emotions in people, then well and good. Since when are emotions a bad thing? Their emotions show that their conscience is not seared and that they still are capable of compassion for vulnerable little ones. Their feelings indicate they recognize the humanity of the preborn child.
If we spoke of the murder of a five year old, would it not bring up emotions of horror and compassion? Would we not think of someone as cold, hard and inhumane if they could hear of such things and have no reaction?
I haven’t listened to the Palin speech, but I’ve seen others who say your read on it is inaccurate.
[25]
JustMary
The reason why the RTL movement has largely been a failure is because it is not focused on doing what is necessary to bring down the numbers of terminations. Most people in the RTL movement are motivated by religious views which go beyond the issue of terminating a pregnancy. Take the Catholic Church for example. They also disapprove of birth control methods. So people just don’t pay attention to them including many Catholics. If the RTL movement would say, our focus is to reduce the number of terminations and if that means an aggressive sex education effort we are on board. If that means making birth control methods more available then we are on board. Instead, what you get from the RTL movement is logical dissonance i.e, we want to punish the doctor not the woman. Or sex education should be limited to abstinence until married. Or we will help the woman during the pregnancy or adoption. What about women who don’t want to give up the child after carrying it for nine months but financially can’t afford it? So there is a lot more to the RTL agenda than reducing the number of terminations and many people don’t agree with their entire agenda, so they resort to emotionalism like INC has done here.
[26]
I look at the unborn child and think that God has a purpose for that person as he does for each of us who breathe on our own.
Thank you for saying this, mullet.
I see God work to pull these posts together. Last night after Mary and I had exchanged some emails, something she wrote reminded me that I needed to check out La Shawn Barber. She has been blogging very intermittently, but I found that just yesterday she had written the post I mentioned above regarding abortion procedures and putting up pictures of the preborn child. How’s that for Providential timing?
As I was commenting a little while ago, I thought I needed to search for something I remembered about Bernard Nathanson. I didn’t find that, but I did find a post at the blog with a recent interview about the impact of technology providing a window into the womb on his thinking. I see again the hand of God in bringing together the truth even for such a small post as this one.
[27]
Wonderful post, INC!
Thank you for reminding us of what the sophists among us try to constantly deny
The fetus is a living HUMAN BEING
I look forward to your continuing articles in this series!
[28]
Thank you, MFG!
[29]
chek, a failure?
Why do you say such things? You know they’re not true.
From Jill Stanek from April 30th: Pew poll: big drop in abortion support
Just yesterday, Ed Morrissey had this up:
CNN Poll: Majorities oppose gay marriage, pro-choice now just plurality
[30]
I haven’t listened to the Palin speech, but I’ve seen others who say your read on it is inaccurate.
See it for yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaLPEoAoV2g
At 4:40 she finds out about being pregnant and considers “changing circumstances” since no one knew about her pregnancy and was out of town.
At 5:15 she finds out about Trig’s “abnormalities” and again considers “changing circumstances”.
[31]
So?
[32]
Science is stripping away the lies and the nonsense, as it always eventually does
In order to successfully carry out a program of mass murder, the BASIC HUMANITY of those to be murdered must always be denied
To the extent that this preliminary work is successful is the extent to which the mass murder succeeds in practice.
Thus, Hitler’s work of demonizing the Jews was very successful, as were his extermination camps; Blacks were very successfully portrayed as less than human for centuries, enabling slavery to go along its merry way for centuries also.
For this reason, the baby killing crowd must ALWAYS suppress accurate scientific information about these developing babies because they know, were the TRUTH to ever come out fully about the HUMANITY of these children, that the American public would never tolerate this mass murder.
Thank you, INC, for your continuing efforts to educate us all on these issues.
[33]
chek, you are a tireless advocate for death. Your conscience is seared. I pity you, because this must affect all of who you are.
[34]
Mike, thanks. I thought the quote from Nathanson above is significant:
For me it indicates why the pro-abort crowd was able to push their propaganda about a “blob of tissue” on America. If physicians had written so little (it’s really pathetic when you think about), then the ordinary citizen wouldn’t know much at all.
[35]
INC
Everyone who wants to vote for abortion “rights” should be required, by law, to watch an actual abortion from start to finish
[36]
Why do you say such things? You know they’re not true.
At look at the ballot intiatives as the basis for my assertion. Polls are unreliable when it comes to emotional issues. Look at the polling for Prop 187 when the issue was framed as support=racism. So let’s look at actual votes which can’t be manipulated like polls:
In South Dakota, the ballot initiative called for a ban on all abortions in the state except in cases where mother’s life or health is at risk or in cases of rape or incest for pregnancies of less than 20 weeks. It failed 55% to 45%. Here is the link for additional information:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/individual/#SDI01
In Colorado, the Human Life from the Moment of Conception was defeated by a stunning margin of 73% to 27%. The measure called for the definition the term “person” to include “any human being from the moment of fertilization. This is basically the same language as the pro-life plank in the GOP platform. McCain got 45% of the vote in Colorado which means that many GOP voters also rejected the initiative. Here is the link for more information:
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/individual/#COI02
[37]
MFG, that’s true. I’ve seen such horrific pictures they make me ill.
Amazingly (or not so amazingly) from a few things I’ve seen it appears that many of the younger pro-lifers are the most in your face about using those pics.
[38]
Why do you keep saying abortion is an emotional issue as if that makes it meaningless? Also, those polls are more recent than the election results.
It’s back to the drawing boards for education and more work in SD and CO.
[39]
chek, you are a tireless advocate for death. Your conscience is seared. I pity you, because this must affect all of who you are.
More over the top, emotional rhetoric. Clear sign of desperation. Instead of attacking me, why don’t you explain how you would address this issue legislatively. This post reminds me of the kind of tactics the Left uses. Show an Hispanic child crying as the ICE officers deport his illegal immigrant parents. Pure emotionalism.
[40]
WHEN IT COMES TO THE VENTING OF SPLEEN,
WE HAVE OUR VERY OWN DRAMA QUEEN,
HER BOUTS OF VITRIOL ARE PANDEMIC,
HER SPEWING IS A GREAT EMETIC,
HER RATIONALITY IS FAR AND BETWEEN.
[41]
No, it’s truth. It’s science.
You’re comparing apples to oranges. I’m not picking one instance to get around the law. I’m presenting the facts.
Let me repeat myself in case you missed it:
And you are a tireless advocate for death. That’s the truth. If that elicits emotion in you, then well and good, because you need to face the truth about what you push for.
[42]
This issue has been addressed legislatively and you know it. I was there at Hot Air when a commenter listed for you all of the wins in state legislatures.
[43]
For this reason, the baby killing crowd must ALWAYS suppress accurate scientific information about these developing babies because they know, were the TRUTH to ever come out fully about the HUMANITY of these children, that the American public would never tolerate this mass murder.
Again, if the RTL movement believes it is mass murder why not advocate capital punishment. More logical dissonance from the RTL movement. Here is what I mean:
From Priests for Life:
The only people who propose prison sentences for abortive women are pro-choicers. The goal of pro-lifers was always to put abortionists in jail, where they belong. Pro-choicers don’t think this is fair. They want abortionists to be able to injure and kill women, free of fear of prosecution. But if abortionists are going to jail for injuring women, pro-choicers want the women to go to jail, too.
Also, this contradict INC’s prior statement that:
Mary, there’s an incredible logical dissonance in that law (PBA). The pro-abortion people cannot admit the facts of what is happening in an abortion, because then any moral cover to use in their propaganda would be gone.
It is the pro-lifers who don’t want to punish woment. Not pro-choicers. If it is mass murder, them why not treated as such?
[44]
Here’s the thread: Pro-abortion groups freak out over license plates
and here’s the comment.
[45]
INC
Fine. Go out there and change hearts and minds of women contemplating terminating a pregnancy. I have no problem with that. But let’s take the HLA out of the GOP platform and let’s drop all attempts to deal with this issue legislatively except for reasonable restrictions.
[46]
chek, perhaps some pro-life advocates have some compassion for women who have been manipulated in a difficult situation by the pro-aborts, their boyfriends and their parents.
You seem to have no compassion whatsoever for the preborn child. You tirelessly try to find some way to poke holes in pro-life positions.
Whatever goes on in your mind and heart?
[47]
Why?
This is evil.
[48]
I was there at Hot Air when a commenter listed for you all of the wins in state legislatures.
Like what? Parental notification? PBA and other measures that broad majority and pro-choicers like me support? The RTL is not about common sense restrictions. It is about making it illegal at all stages. It is not about PBA or late terms. If that were the case, this issue would have been solved decades ago. Everybody knows that the ultimate goal of the RTL is to ban at all stages with one exception, life of the mother. I little honesty from the RTL movement would go a long way.
[49]
Honesty? No one has covered up about anything about goals!
I repeat:
[50]
perhaps some pro-life advocates have some compassion for women who have been manipulated in a difficult situation by the pro-aborts, their boyfriends and their parents.
Yeah sure. Women know exactly what they are doing. Stop infantilizing them.
[51]
I disagree. You equate compassion with infantilizing?
[52]
Whatever goes on in your mind and heart?
Only I and God know and it is none of your business. Now you are making the case for changing the law. You are the one who has the obligation to lay out how you would go about implementing it. Not me.
[53]
Anything I could say, you would immediately work at objecting to in some manner. IMO, you do not pose questions out of a sincere desire for answers, but out of a desire to snare and trap.
[54]
IMO, you do not pose questions out of a sincere desire for answers, but out of a desire to snare and trap.
Typical RTL cop out. Just like their protestations that it is all the doctors fault and women are victims. BS and everybody knows it. Married women account for 1/3 of terminations. These women along with their husbands decide they had enough kids. It is a conscious decision by the married couple. I have never received a telemarketing call from PP or any other provider trying to sell me a procedure. It is women who go there. Even the Mona Lisa project, it is their members that approach providers not the other way around. So you want to advance your case, start dealing with the reality of what creates the situation that leads to terminations.
[55]
We have and you know it. Every thing you say I’ve seen answered by someone.
[56]
INC: As always, a wonderful post. This week, I will be getting to see my grandson, due on July 9th, in 4d…I am sooooo excited. My daughter was absolutely thrilled to have it done, and to see what a miracle her son is. I remember when I was pregnant with my son, lo, these many years ago! The sonograms were still so new and unsophisticated compared to today’s, I couldn’t even see the baby on the screen. Now, I will see my grandson, see his fingers, toes, eyebrows…the whole enchilada! From my daughter’s womb!
About Palin-Not comparing her to Jesus, but even HE wrestled with doing the right thing at the end…Her decision was not death, but for her, a death to self, when abortion obviously would have made her life easier, would have been so convenient. But she didn’t think long on those thoughts, didn’t abort him, and brought this tiny bundle of joy into the world.
Chek, do you mean we shouldn’t stop abortions until we get every jot and tittle figured out about who gets jail time, and what to do with frozen embryos, etc? We should keep on aborting until all the questions are answered?
[57]
JustMary
Here is the thing I don’t understand about our justice system- when a pregnant woman is murdered, the perp is charged with double murder….is that only because the baby was assumed to be wanted? Does being a wanted child make it a human and not a fetus? How come a woman cannot be charged with murder if that same baby at the same gestation was aborted?
You are not alone. I have yet to understand what the legal difference is.
[58]
Thanks, beej. Congratulations on your new grandson! How wonderful that will be to see him. I also saw sonograms of my sons when they were those black and white things–the technician had to help us “see” what we were seeing!
[59]
but out of a desire to snare and trap.
How is this even possible? I mean you lay out your proposal and others point out strenghts and weaknesses. What does “trapping” have to do with it?
[60]
Been there, answered that!
[61]
INC, applying my simplistic observation. If I can count fingers, like I can in that picture, ‘IT’ is someone, not something. Puts the 1st trimester rule in peril in my book.
[62]
I agree, Dr. Dog.
[63]
If you check out some of the facts regarding fetal development, they’re incredible. One thing I found while writing this is that some sites do not want you even linking to them. One is a government site that features a medical encyclopedia with some great facts on fetal development. Another site is a medical school that evidently wrote the facts for the gov site. I found it really strange. I don’t know why, but it did cross my mind to wonder if they really don’t want the facts disseminated by those who are pro-life advocates.
[64]
beej
Have you serioulsy contemplated killing your born children? Yeah, everybody says it but have you seriously throught…hmmmm nobody knows me and …. come on. Palin is showing a basic truth and that is that the status and nature of an embryo is different than a fetus or born child. The rhetoric of “murder” just doesn’t fit the situation during the early stages. Everbody knows it. Even the RTL movement. If they would just focus on trying to bring the number of unplanned pregnancies down, we could see real results. Real progress on this issue.
[65]
Another canard.
[66]
A brain dead person has fingers and toes, why do we allow families to stop life support? Being human involves much more than figers and toes. A couple I know – very deeply religious – found out that their baby was not developing properly. They are adamently pro-life and for them terminanting the pregnancy was not even an option. The baby was born with an abnormal brain, no digestive system and they had to make the decision to take him off life support after a few days. He died. It was heartbreaking. I am not prepared to say they killed him.
[67]
“I don’t know why, but it did cross my mind to wonder if they really don’t want the facts disseminated by those who are pro-life advocates.” — INC
Wait till doppler high def sonogram machines become available. Planned Parenthood heads will explode.
[68]
INC
So now working to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies is a canard? Why don’t you just come out and say that what you want is more than reducing the number of terminations. You want people to adopt a certain type of moral lifestyle and if it means having the government step in and make people do it you are more than happy to go along.
[69]
Here’s the thread: Pro-abortion groups freak out over license plates
Those are the extremists on the other side of the debate. Why care about a license plate? Totally stupid.
[70]
Chek, Unless I missed my clues I don’t most on this list are opposed to birth control.
[71]
Dr. Dog, I’m not familiar with them–sounds terrific. I’ve seen the GE 3-D/4-D sonograms.
Planned Parenthood heads will explode. That’s what all the tech advances do to them!
[72]
really don’t want the facts disseminated by those who are pro-life advocates.
Yes. It is a conspiracy. Janet Napolitano must be behind this.
[73]
The doppler won’t out for 3-4 years. Need certification.
[74]
Chek, Unless I missed my clues I don’t most on this list are opposed to birth control.
Who knows? Asking people whether they approve of birth control is apparently a trap.
[75]
Thank you for the info. I’ll try to remember that.
[76]
So the answer is the doppler sonogram and not improving birth control methods. Hmmmmm….. interesting.
[77]
Chek, do you mean we shouldn’t stop abortions until we get every jot and tittle figured out about who gets jail time, and what to do with frozen embryos, etc? We should keep on aborting until all the questions are answered?
It depends on what you are proposing. Parental notification? You don’t need to answer any of the questions you posed. But if you are going to push for HLA type of legislation, you better figure out what to do with the over half a million of frozen embryos currently in fertility clinics.
[78]
Been there, answered that!!!
[79]
So the answer is the doppler sonogram and not improving birth control methods. Hmmmmm….. interesting. — Chek
Sorry, nobody made that connection but you.
Again, I don’t think there are many who oppose birth control.
[80]
And I know a family whose early testing informed them they were going to have a downs syndrome child. Family, friends, and medical personnel all encouraged an abortion. The family, devout Christians and pro-life, broken-hearted, couldn’t abort, and lived for months under the sad cloud of the life their baby would have.
The day of delivery arrived, and much to everyone’s surprise and never ending joy, the baby was born quite a normal child. No downs syndrome, no other abnormality…
I don’t know what reasons are in your heart about this, but something about abortions and the pro-life position throw you into an unreasonable anger. You throw out inaccuracies, use your infamous strawmen more than anyone else I know, and basically have gotten to where you are far past annoying with your anger about it, but are verging on the pathetic. You remind me of Bagdhad Bob, saying the Americans were no where near the City, while we watched American tanks drive by behind him. We can SEE with our eyes what a 7 week old baby looks like while still in the womb. Science has come so far, and your talking points and ‘arguments’ haven’t caught up with science.
I graduated high school in 1971. In those days, you could go off to New York, and a few other more liberal states, to get an abortion, but it was very hush hush, because being pregnant and unmarried was very frowned upon, and abortion, although legal in NY, was not an act to be proud you participated in. I knew then I could never ever have one, but I thought I couldn’t ‘judge’ women who had them. At the same time, a pretty fool proof birth control was developed: The pill.
Since then, we’ve come up with all kinds of birth control products that work more than 97% of the time. And in almost ALL of the US, you can get these products from free clinics and similar places. So, now I DO judge women who get abortions. They are using abortions AS birth control. When there are so many forms available so freely here, and they aren’t used, it makes the couple seem like mere animals unable to control their urges.
No, I was married when I got pregnant. I miscarried twice before my two children were born, and it would never have entered my mind to have an abortion. But my life was very different than Gov. Palin’s. The choices and decisions she has made in her life would be very different than those I have made in mine. There are things I have faced and choices I’ve made that might appall the Governor.
[81]
But if you are going to push for HLA type of legislation, you better figure out what to do with the over half a million of frozen embryos currently in fertility clinics.
~~~~~~~~~
And that’s probably true. But again, do we continue to abort/murder until we figure out what to do with them?
[82]
beej
I think the reliability of medical tests is always something to be questioned, as it is not uncommon to have false positives.
Sometimes, and this is going to sound strange, I think medical tests are “character tests” for us, putting us under stress, a “grace under pressure” kind of situation, which tests our values by the decisions we ultimately make.
[83]
Sometimes, and this is going to sound strange, I think medical tests are “character tests” for us, putting us under stress, a “grace under pressure” kind of situation, which tests our values by the decisions we ultimately make.–Janzam
~~~~~~~~
Not strange at all, Jan. I agree, it is, or can be, a test of our values and commitment to them. Sometimes, we pass the test, other times we fail. Thankfully, there is Grace given, and sometimes, even get do-overs.
[84]
beej
Have you ever noticed that one just keeps doing some things over and over again until you get it right!
Talk about having to get hit on the side of the head, sometimes, to see the light of reason!
This is where I turn to God and thank Him for having so much patience with me.
[85]
Have you ever noticed that one just keeps doing some things over and over again until you get it right! –Janzam
~~~~~~~~~~
lol! been there, do that, and got the lumps to prove it! lol!
[86]
But again, do we continue to abort/murder until we figure out what to do with them?
We can work together in trying to bring down the numbers. There is nothing right now that prevent you or INC to go out there and try to convince women to carry on. NOTHING. If the RTL movement would focus less on the HLA, other legislation calling for near complete bans, idiotic litmus tests for politicians, and focus more on what we need to do to bring down the numbers, I think we would be further ahead than we are now. They way I feel about it, if it means giving out free birth control, I would not mind spending taxpayer’s money to do that while I object taxpayer’s money to fund abortions.
[87]
Dr. Dog,
Where is your wife from? Does she have an opinion on the life issue?
[88]
unreasonable anger
Not any less anger than when people try to justify other legislation on emotionalism.
[89]
You throw out inaccuracies, use your infamous strawmen more than anyone else I know,
Like what? The results of the two ballot initiatives. Those were inaccurate? Or the fact that if you are going to push that ridiculous HLA you have to decide what to do with frozen embryos currently being stored. find all the emotionalism pathetic. I find reducing a human beings to fingers and toes or a cell de-humanizing.
So, now I DO judge women who get abortions.
Current law does not prevent you from judging them. That is your choice. But there is a difference between judging them and putting them in jail.
I miscarried twice before my two children
Remember how painful that experience was and tell how would you have felt if during your grief you would also be subject to a police inquiry to determine whether it was a legitimate miscarriage or a voluntary termination? And don’t call it a strawmen unless you are prepared to say exactly HOW you are going to enforce the law. How you are going to gather evidence.
Finally, I find it interesting that at the end of your rant full of anger towards me, you mention the word “choice” a few times. Even you understand that it is a choice.
[90]
idiotic litmus tests for politicians,
If I’m not mistaken on this, and I’m pretty sure i’m not, the idiotic litmus tests for politicians was started with the Dems. Although candidates for SCOTUS are not technically politicians, it is the DEMS who use this test, not the Republicans. Ruth Ginsberg passed in the Senate 97 or 98 to 0.
A pro-choice pol that (I think) proves a point about the legitimacy of the abortion litmus test…Arlen Spector.
He wasn’t a ‘rino’ because of the abortion issue. But many ‘rinos’ are ALSO pro choice. Believing in the sanctity of life isn’t limited to abortion, but is a basis for all kinds of legislation or decisions in life. I am not going to dismiss a pol simply because of their position on abortion, but if the rest of their positions don’t line up in regard to the sanctity of life, then I do.
[91]
Remember how painful that experience was and tell how would you have felt if during your grief you would also be subject to a police inquiry to determine whether it was a legitimate miscarriage or a voluntary termination?–Chek
Fortunately for me, then, I was in a hospital, and a Catholic hospital at that. I had to give specific instructions on how to dispose of the baby (three months along) and had the opportunity for the Sisters to bless the baby…or what ever it is that Catholics do. I had emergency room documentation for one. In the other, I was in the cafeteria at the hospital and started hemoraging (sp) I worked at the hospital in those days, and ended up with many witnesses to this miscarriage.
Are you saying we have to know immediately before abortions are stopped, who what when where and how about who is guilty, and how we are going to punish them? I believe that is up to the individual states, as is all the regulation of abortion, and not up to the federal government. As I said earlier, you could go to NY (I lived in OH, it was the closest state at the time) to get an abortion. This was before R v W. It was against the law in Ohio. You just…didn’t do it. Just like…you don’t steal, don’t jay walk, don’t murder, don’t have abortions. I think (at the time) the ‘rule’ of thumb was abortions only in the case of rape/incest or in the case of danger to the life of the mother. It may have been ‘law.’ I don’t remember.
I believe there will be a difference in most cases of miscarriages or abortions…the docs can tell, I believe, for example, the difference in a d&c and a miscarriage that didn’t require medical assistance. in the case of the medical assistance, you have the ‘product of conception’ as ‘proof.’
A choice? of course, everything we do is a choice. One doesn’t (normally) conceive without knowledge of how it happened, and one doesn’t end up at an abortion clinic without knowing how they got there.
Imo, the choice comes before conception, not after.
I have been angry at you many times, too many times to count. But today wasn’t one of them. If you perceived that in something I wrote, please point it out to me, so I may apologize properly.
[92]
beej
Way too personal.
[93]
I find reducing a human beings to fingers and toes or a cell de-humanizing.
Gee whiz, the first thing new parents do is examine the new life to see if he/she has all his/her parts, looking at the tiny hands and feet in awe…looking at the length of their eyelashes, their perfect little shiny ears, their sweet bud of a nose, at the abundance (or lack there of) of hair…tiny tiny finger nails and toe nails…even smelling the baby, snuggling close to it, touching the softest substance known to parents, a baby’s skin…To see these things in the womb is such an awesome piece of science…a miracle in itself. I can’t wait to see it.
If reducing a human being to fingers and toes or a cell is de-humanizing, what does abortion do to a human being?
[94]
It’s life.
[95]
but you are right, in looking over that post, it probably could have been said with less personal description.
[96]
Well, it looks like that INC has gone over to HHR to call in reinforcements. Specifically, Eph who until recently posted links to LifeNews about 300 times a day. So now we have that to look forward to.
Anyway, my understanding of the purpose of this blog was that to find principles and/or an agenda that can unite us on the right so that together we can fight the Obama agenda. We all know that the issue of life is extremely divisive and yet it didn’t take long before INC started a category on this issue. So my question to JustRand and JustMary is are you looking for ways to unite the conservative movement or are you interested in proving that the movement DOES NEED people who support reproductive rights?
[97]
chek, I thought Eph needed to know you pull the same stuff here as over there.
You also need to know I was invited to do this series by one of the bloggers. It was what I was asked to do as the initial reason for being brought on board in April as a featured poster. I have done nothing in secret. Mary and Justrand both saw this post a couple of days ago.
[98]
The pro-abortion crowd will do whatever it needs to keep abortion alive and kicking. This group is getting nervous because they realize they are losing the hearts and minds of the American people.
The right-to-life crowd made great strides in bringing people to our side. The availability of photos such as those INC posted at the top of the thread was probably very influential in this aspect. Churches/religions organizations also played a big part. Also, Pres Bush was on the right side of this issue.
Our side has to keep on winning the hearts and minds. This is accomplished not by running away from people (politicians) who advocate life over convenience, but by embracing them.
[99]
Tony, you’re right. The windows into the womb have really helped. I was surprised this morning when I found that quote from Nathanson about how little literature had been written in the medical community even by 1969 and that “fetology essentially did not exist.” It’s also significant that science and technology started to change his mind–a man who had been one of the main movers in the pro-abort crowd.
[100]
A couple of years ago William Saletan wrote this article for Slate: Sex, Life, and Videotape: Ultrasound and the future of abortion. In it he had this paragraph:
[101]
chek, I thought Eph needed to know you pull the same stuff here as over there.
Why? BTW, he gooles my name and the word “abortion” all the time just for kicks. It was unnecessary and vindictive on your part.
[102]
beej, thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate your willingness to tell it.
[103]
You pull out the same reasons and objections at every place I’ve come across you commenting. Other people need to know they’re not alone in fighting the good fight and that others have also answered you.
[104]
INC
I am not suggesting that you are doing things behind JustRand and JustMary. Not at all. My question to them is waht they want to use this blog for. If they decide to go along the traditional rightwing blog complete with a strong religious and social issues agenda, then I would humbly suggest that they change its name. Ayn Rand was adamently pro-choice and believed that religion impared people’s ability to reason.
[105]
chekote: We all know that the issue of life is extremely divisive and yet it didn’t take long before INC started a category on this issue.
I was just trying to set the record straight.
[106]
Other people need to know they’re not alone in fighting the good fight and that others have also answered you.
It was vindictive and you know it. Eph suggesting that I must have terminated a pregnancy and linking support groups is answering my questions? How?
[107]
Here’s something from Libertarians for Life:
Abortion and Rights: Applying Libertarian Principles Correctly by Doris Gordon who is a follower of Ayn Rand.
She does not say how Rand explained her later contradiction of her earlier statement; however, Gordon does go on to make what she considers the libertarian case for life.
[108]
Inc — beautiful post
Beej, Jan, Mary — I am touched, moved, overjoyed, elated, and comforted by your posts.
Of course, I had to scan the usual tripe from Che until this …
I literally busted out laughing …
Chekote — you telling someone “too personal” — is akin to the Circus side show 800 pound fat woman calling a skelton fat.
I knew before I opened the comments that our resident psycho, Chekote, would spew her vile satanic evil. I’ll pray for you Chekote but something tells me that in Dante’s levels you are scraping bottom.
[109]
I was just trying to set the record straight.
You know very well where I stand and I know where you stand on this issue. We are not going to change each other’s mind. So what is the point? Why not be constructive and try to find ways we can bring the numbers down. I want that. You want that. Why not work on it?
[110]
In another article at the same site, Gordon wrote this:
[111]
I hope to nudge and persuade others who are perhaps uninformed or misinformed.
Nudge them to do what?
[112]
chek, at this point I don’t expect to change your mind. I hope to nudge and persuade others who are perhaps uninformed or misinformed.
[113]
I knew before I opened the comments that our resident psycho, Chekote, would spew her vile satanic evil. I’ll pray for you Chekote but something tells me that in Dante’s levels you are scraping bottom.
This is an example of how SoCons drive voters away with their rhetoric.
[114]
Hey, Judy, thank you!
[115]
Chekote — you are not adding anything to this conversation — so why don’t you leave and STFU.
All your comments do is add additional burden to your own dark soul and separate your further from God.
In the end Chekote, the only “political” relationship that matters is the one between you and GOD.
What you do here on this blog you will carry with you past this life. Do you really want to continue to advocate for the death of this precious gift of life. Look at those fingers, you can even see the beginnings of the philtrum, read the testimony of what this life was doing while still in the sac. How can you continue unmoved to spew you filth?
[116]
Chekote, I am the one who came up with the idea of the “In Defense Of Life” series and I asked INC to undertake it for us
I don’t think we stress this issue excessively here, however we will not be intimidated into silence about the issue either
[117]
Thank you, MFG. It’s been just over three weeks since I did the first one (I can’t remember at the moment if anyone else has done one in that interim), so no, I don’t think it’s been stressed excessively.
[118]
You’re right, Judy, you can see the beginning of the philtrum. I hadn’t noticed that. You also enlarged my vocabulary by teaching me a new word (if I ever saw that one, I’d forgotten it).
[119]
Chekote how I speak to you is very different than how I address the issue of abortion with people who became sexually active after Roe v. Wade. Both Beej and I have the perspective of the pre 1972 crowd. Sadly there is almost 40 years of misinformation out there about how damaging abortion is to all the people involved.
[120]
In that last article I mentioned by Gordon, she has done some hard thinking about the idea of the “rights” of the mother. (My emphasis).
[121]
JERIMIAH 1:5~~~BEFORE I FORMED YOU IN THE WOMB I KNEW YE.
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_7jnp--UE&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x234900&color2=0x4e9e00]
[122]
Inc it is a beautiful post. I just can’t stay here and read Che’s posts. I tried to ignore most of them as I’ve heard it all before. The rest of the posts here are wonderful.
[123]
Thanks, ip, I love that verse from Jeremiah–it is so touching.
Hey, Judy, I understand.
[124]
Gordon concludes her lengthy article by saying this:
[125]
Chek- One of the things I wanted to do with this site is have a few monthy/weekly series on topics that I find important, and ones I think are important to this country. As such, you will see more series as time goes on covering topics that warrant more than just a one time post. Cost of Freedom, In defense of life, Hunker down, Media dishonesty, and other topics we don’t have a title for yet. What I am trying to do is look at each poster’s area of expertise and allow them to write a series on a topic that I think they can run with. If I ever have a series on “How to irritate the snot out of everyone you meet”…..you of course will have first dibs as I am pretty sure you are an expert.
Ayn may have a different view than I do when it comes to abortion, and if that is an area that I disagree with- so be it. This site was started as the capitalist’s answer to Obama…..and is morphing into something richer than originally designed. So what? If you don’t want to read a certain series, don’t read it. I would also advise you though, to stop posting about abortion in every thread. If you don’t want to hear others’ views on it, don’t invite them. Don’t turn each conversation around to it, and then act like you cannot believe you are discussing it again.
It sure seems to me that it doesn’t matter what topic we discuss though, you have the antithesis for it. It seems like you just enjoy stirring the pot for attention. I could say the sky was blue, and you would rush right over to your crayon box to look up the name for some obscure shade of blue- and immediately post your correction.
[126]
JM, I noticed you made a few changes to the site. Refreshing keeps you on your current view, and it seems you upped the comment length. Anything else I missed?
[127]
Whenever I refresh, it takes me back to the opening page of BJG.
[128]
The idea that we should only post on issues we agree on is laughable. That is cowardice.
We should be happy to agree on what we can, and continue to discuss that which we cannot.
[129]
Why do I think it is no coincidence that the pro-abortion/death crowd always ran, throughout history, and still run today, with the most hedonist, decadent, immoral, depraved, psychopathic, self destructive, self serving, totally narcissist societies and political groups that ever dwelt among men?
Generally:
Nazis
Communists
Progressives
Racists
Fabian Socialists
Sexual deviants
Nihilists
Pagan, dead end pantheist cultures with human sacrifice
Basically, all those people who thought of nothing else than themselves and their immediate desires, and would stop at nothing to realize them, adopting the “unconstrained” view of man, putting themselves in place of God and reaping death and misery and sorrow in their wake.
Meanwhile, take a look at the life community and their “constrained” theory limiting the concept of man’s infallibility and living in liberty but checked by morality and sacrifice FOR others, not OF others:
Generally:
The founders
The church
The early settlers
The west before it’s corruption by those above
These people were not saints. But nevertheless they were willing to obey a code of morals, (yes generally) that over time gave rise to the most distinguished and developed civilizations on earth. They put God and each other above themsleves. And they have lasted a long time, though now they are in collapse.
Coincidence? Survey says….bzzzt!
[130]
And yes. Muslims are pro-life too, in a dark and spooky way. But look! There sure are a lot of them, and wow! They are getting stronger. Not good for the world, not good for freedom, but you might notice that indeed, the culture of life yields life, power, wealth, strength, enduring civilization.
The Culture of death? Anyone?
[131]
RWY, you need to take those last two comments and work them into a post.
Just sayin’
[132]
Since we’re speaking of abortion, I am reminded of Obama, which further reminds me of his Supreme Court nomination, which brings me to Jeff Sessions.
Sessions is now the ranking member on the Judiciary Committee, which means he will have a huge influence over the other Repulican members. Below is Sessions voting record on Abortion (Source: http://www.ontheissues.org) I have linked to the remaining Republican Committee members, but to the person, they appear to be pro-life.
Sessions on Abortion:
Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)
Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007)
Voted NO on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)
Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)
Voted YES on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003)
Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000)
Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
Voted YES on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998)
Rated 0% by NARAL, indicating a pro-life voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 100% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-life stance. (Dec 2006)
Prohibit transporting minors across state lines for abortion. (Jan 2008)
Republican Judiciary Committee members on abortion:
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/orrin_hatch.htm#Abortion
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/jon_kyl.htm#Abortion
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Lindsey_Graham.htm#Abortion
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_Cornyn.htm#Abortion
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Tom_Coburn.htm#Abortion
Does anybody know if the Republicans have replaced Specter?
This is a guess here, but I think there is concern on the left that a pro-choice candidate will not get out of committee, which may be the reason Obama hasn’t nominated somebody yet. Lets hope these members remember what the Democrats did to them every time the Bush nominated somebody they didn’t like. I won’t hold my breath.
[133]
I am so, so happy to hear about Sessions. He’s a hero and a reason to move to Alabama!
[134]
To top that off, remember what that poster on HotAir said about needing at least one Republican for a nomination to get out committee?
Now is the time for Senate Republicans to be strong and do what’s right for the country. (I just laughed at my own joke.)
[135]
INc, thank you for this splendid post!
I just got home, and before reading through the comments wanted to throw one of my own in regarding the Harrison Hickman quote from the 1989 conference of the National Abortion Rights Action League.
Here’s the loathsome quote again:
Nothing has been as damaging to our cause as the advances in technology which have allowed pictures of the developing fetus, because people now talk about that fetus in much different terms than they did fifteen years ago. They talk about it as a human being, which is not something that I have an easy answer how to cure.
“our cause”????? The extermination of human life??
When I read that quote I immediately thought of the captured alien in “Independance Day”. When confronted by the President and asked what they want us to do, the alien replies:
Die…DIE!!!
If the alien had then gone on to utter Harrison Hickman’s words, it would have been very much in character!!
[136]
ip727: “Whenever I refresh, it takes me back to the opening page of BJG.”
which, I take it, you find refreshing!!
[137]
I will not knowingly fight for pro-choice Americans. If that sounds coarse I’m sorry, but that’s just how I feel about it. If the muslims ever were to reach rampage status in this country, I would concentrate on saving those who would extend the same right to the helpless and innocent unborn.
Those who would not, and who rationalize the selfish extinguishing of their little lives, should be left to the tenderness of the headchopping savages, or at least have to fend for themselves until “we” got around to them.
Let them feel themselves, the casual malice they insist on inflicting on the unborn. No one deserves it more.
[138]
Thanks, Justrand.
Yes that quote from Hickman is just about like something you’d expect from a sci fi flick.
[139]
J, when I refresh it takes right back to my current place–to the exact post.
This started this morning after I installed the Windows 7 beta. I’m using Explore 8, but I have been using that for almost a year now.
[140]
Again sorry for the drama. but sometimes you feel the urge to express boundless contempt for such remorselessness.
I will never understand how some people can claim “life, liberty, and pursuit..” for themselves, and demand others fight and die to preserve it, and then so callously deny it to others, or claim the need to restrict the state is somehow relevant or superior.
Life
Then Liberty
then pursuit.
It’s the first one! Remember Costanza and Newman on the rainy day? It’s the first one!
[141]
I love it when O’Reily is arrogant enough to think he can school ‘the architect’ on what Republicans need to do to rebuild our party.
[142]
Who was he schooling tonight?
[143]
INC….reading the first part of that post nearly made me cry. I mean I save spiders and rolly polly bugs out of the pool as part of my morning routine. To hear about that fetus swimming was just heartwrenching. It is to my personal shame that I used to think abortion a reasonable alternative to bringing an unwanted child into being.
[144]
The architect, Karl Rove
[145]
Tony, O’Reilly’s arrogance has no bounds!
Bruce, thanks for your comment. Many of us have compassion on tiny animals and critters of all sorts. Seeing pictures and hearing about the preborn child helps us realize the reality.
[146]
Wasn’t there a poster on this blog who mentioned saving bunnies recently? And yet for human children, the needle.
Explanation?
[147]
rwy…I may have made the “saving the bunnies” comment (but I ALSO mentioned the fluffy kittens!!)
your point is well taken though. the Left is CONSUMED with ALL “innocent” life…except HUMAN life!
So kittens (and yes, bunnies), get full protection in their “innocence” from the Left…while human beings are discarded without a backward glance!
It is only WE who “talk about it as a human being”
[148]
It was not you, Randall…
[149]
rwy, but, but…the BUNNIES!!!
I knew it wasn’t Moi, btw…but I use the “fluffy bunny and fuzzy kitten” mantra a lot! Of course, I don’t EXACTLY mean it the way the Left does!
[150]
Anybody need a late night laugh?
Specter Will Be Junior Democrat on Committees, per Roll Call
[151]
I hope Toomey beats Ridge in the R primary
Obviously the NRSC will back Ridge, so they wont be getting any funds from me
if Ridge wins the R nod, it really won’t matter whether Specter wins or not.
[152]
Arlen Specter, lol…..
[153]
Tony, now with Sessions as Ranking Member on Judiciary and Specter demoted, I think we have a definite improvement!
Specter must be livid with Reid and the Dems. His switch is probably not going to do him any good at all.
[154]
INC, I was reading your post and got to the word ‘demoted’ and thought it said ‘demented’. lol
Some Democrat hack said in that link that Specter was being ‘punished’ for saying he wants Coleman to win. Looks like a ruse to me. We’re supposed to be mad at the Democrats for treating ‘one of our own’ with disrespect.
[155]
at least Judas got 30 REAL pieces of silver!
Specter got 30 tokens from the local arcade!!
Geez, Arlen, while your soul wasn’t worth MUCH…ya should have at least bargained…eh?
(still, 30 tokens can last a long while…if you’re good. Frankly, I tend to blow ‘em on Skee-Ball!)
[156]
I can imagine the has-been big wig Specter approaching one of the more senior Republican menbers on a committee to “talk policy”
“I’m sorry Sen Specter, you will need permission from your leadership to talk to me. Junior members are not allowed to associate with the other side without somebody in the leadership at your side.”
[157]
conservativetony, now THAT would leave a (well-deserved) mark!!!
[158]
Since we are on the subject of God and children, I found this a pretty interesting analysis of what the Bible says about God and children:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/children.html
[159]
Seek counseling, Chekote.
[160]
A faulty presentation made without context, historical background or theological analysis–and one made not to seek out the truth and discern it, but to reject it and to cause others to stumble and prevent them from coming to Christ.
[161]
So that is what mental illness looks like when you write it down…..