Political Correctness Trumps National Security

2009 November 9
by bc3b

While the families of 12 deceased members of the military and one civilian prepare funeral services for their loved ones, General George Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, expressed his concern about a possible backlash against “our Muslim soldiers.” He said, “It would be a shame — as great a tragedy as this was — it would be a shame if our diversity became a casualty as well.”

Question, General Casey: If Major Hasan could carry two personal weapons onto a base, what’s to prevent a Muslim sailor with jihadist tendencies from blowing up the Ordinence area on one of our aircraft carriers? After all, we have already had incidents where a Muslin serving in the U.S. Army blow up a munitions dump. Had we followed the general’s advice in WWII and had a diverse armed force that included NAZIs the war would have ended sooner but we’d be speaking German.

After all, just because he told neighbors he was going to do “the will of God” the morning of the murders and shouted “Allahu akbar” before opening fire doesn’t mean the rampage was religiously motivated. How could anyone be so stupid as to think that? After all, we know that political correctness always trumps common sense.

General George Casey Jr., the Army chief of staff, said on Sunday that he was concerned that speculation about the religious beliefs of Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, accused of killing 12 fellow soldiers and one civilian and wounding dozens of others in a shooting rampage at Fort Hood, could “cause a backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers.”

“I’ve asked our Army leaders to be on the lookout for that,” General Casey said in an interview on CNN’s “State of the Union. “It would be a shame — as great a tragedy as this was — it would be a shame if our diversity became a casualty as well.”

General Casey, who was appeared on three Sunday news programs, used almost the same language during an interview on ABC’s “This Week With George Stephanopoulos,” an indication of the Army’s effort to ward off bias against the more than 3,000 Muslims in its ranks.

“A diverse Army gives us strength,” General Casey, who visited Fort Hood Friday, said on “This Week.”

At a news conference in Fort Hood, near Killeen, Tex., the Army announced that 16 of the wounded remained hospitalized, with seven in intensive care. Major Hasan, who was shot by a base police officer, was listed in stable but critical condition.

The major, a 39-year-old psychiatrist, is the American-born son of Palestinian immigrants. He vocally opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and seems to have moved toward more extreme religious beliefs in recent years, according to the investigators. Investigators have tentatively concluded that he acted alone and was not part of a terrorist plot.

Just this morning ABC News reports that U.S. Officials were aware that Major Hasan had been attempting to contact people associated with al Qaeda via electronic means.

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

One senior lawmaker said the CIA had, so far, refused to brief the intelligence committees on what, if any, knowledge they had about Hasan’s efforts.

CIA director Leon Panetta and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, have been asked by Congress “to preserve” all documents and intelligence files that relate to Hasan, according to the lawmaker.

On Sunday, Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.

Full article.

Yet Barack Obama, the man who accused police sargeant Crowley of “acting stupidly,” tells us not to jump to conclusions. Commentators on NPR, MSNBC and Washington Post writers claim there is no proof of Islamic Extremism and General Casey is worried about a backlash against Muslim soldiers.

While Military Colleagues Were Concerned about Hasan, None Spoke Up for Fear of Appearing Bigoted

Some who knew Nidal Malik Hasan said they saw clear signs the young Army psychiatrist, who authorities say went on a shooting spree at the Army base Fort Hood that left 13 dead and 29 others wounded, had no place in the military.

There was the classroom presentation that justified suicide bombings. Comments to colleagues about a climate of persecution faced by Muslims in the military. Conversations with a mosque leader that became incoherent.

After he arrived at Fort Hood, Hasan was conflicted about what to tell fellow Muslim soldiers about the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, alarming an Islamic community leader from whom he sought counsel.

“I told him, `There’s something wrong with you,'” Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, told The Associated Press on Saturday. “I didn’t get the feeling he was talking for himself, but something just didn’t seem right.”

Danquah assumed the military’s chain of command knew about Hasan’s doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates in a graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan’s “anti-American propaganda,” but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal written complaint.

“The system is not doing what it’s supposed to do,” said Dr. Val Finnell, who studied with Hasan from 2007-2008 in the master’s program in public health at the military’s Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. “He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out.”

Military criminal investigators continued late Saturday to refer to Hasan as the only suspect in the shootings, declining to say when charges would be filed. “We have not established a motive for the shootings at this time,” said Army Criminal Investigative Command spokesman Chris Grey.

A government official speaking on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss the case said an initial review of Hasan’s computer use has found no evidence of links to terror groups, or anyone who might have helped plan or push him toward the shooting attack. The review of Hasan’s computer is continuing and more evidence could emerge, the source said.

Some who knew Nidal Malik Hasan said they saw clear signs the young Army psychiatrist, who authorities say went on a shooting spree at the Army base Fort Hood that left 13 dead and 29 others wounded, had no place in the military.

There was the classroom presentation that justified suicide bombings. Comments to colleagues about a climate of persecution faced by Muslims in the military. Conversations with a mosque leader that became incoherent.

After he arrived at Fort Hood, Hasan was conflicted about what to tell fellow Muslim soldiers about the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, alarming an Islamic community leader from whom he sought counsel.

“I told him, `There’s something wrong with you,'” Osman Danquah, co-founder of the Islamic Community of Greater Killeen, told The Associated Press on Saturday. “I didn’t get the feeling he was talking for himself, but something just didn’t seem right.”

Danquah assumed the military’s chain of command knew about Hasan’s doubts, which had been known for more than a year to classmates in a graduate military medical program. His fellow students complained to the faculty about Hasan’s “anti-American propaganda,” but said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim student kept officers from filing a formal written complaint.

“The system is not doing what it’s supposed to do,” said Dr. Val Finnell, who studied with Hasan from 2007-2008 in the master’s program in public health at the military’s Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. “He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out.”

With people like General Casey running the show, is there any question why our military has the problems it does?

Hat tip: Islam in Action, ABC News, Jihad Watch and Y Net News.com

70 Responses leave one →
  1. 2009 November 9 8:55 am
    [1]
    INC permalink

    As Commander in Chief I am sure that Obama was briefed last week that the CIA knew about Hasan’s attempt to contact al Qaeda. How despicable for him to say don’t jump to conclusions.

    The CIA should have told the army ASAP and the guy should have been court-martialed.

    Those officers in the army who knew about Hasan’s words and deeds should have told their superior officers and sounded the alarm. I thought officers were supposed to be leaders!

  2. 2009 November 9 9:04 am
    [2]
    INC permalink

    I think that all Muslims who want to be in the Armed Forces should have to pay for a background investigation or not be eligible to enlist.

    From RedState: The Gorelick Wall’s back!

  3. 2009 November 9 9:09 am
    [3]
    bc3b permalink

    At the very least, the armed forces should monitor Muslims closely (yes, I’m talking about profiling). While this is the worst act of Islamic terrorism in the U.S. armed forces, it’s hardly the first.

  4. 2009 November 9 9:13 am
    [4]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    WHEN WILL OBAMA VISIT FORT HOOD ???

  5. 2009 November 9 9:20 am
    [5]
    janzam permalink

    Obama is going with his wife, Michelle, to the memorial service for the fallen men/women at Fort Hood. As I recall Michelle usually doesn’t go places with Obama unless it has perks such as shopping or trying to get the Olympics for Chicago.

    So, I’m kindna guessing here, but perhaps Michelle is trying to keep up with Laura Bush, seeing that see earlier accompanied her husband, at the get go, in seeing the families and troops at Fort Hood, giving them moral support.

  6. 2009 November 9 9:21 am
    [6]
    janzam permalink

    see = she My word processing is off this morning —> sorry!

  7. 2009 November 9 9:28 am
    [7]

    RUSH ON FIRE !!!

  8. 2009 November 9 9:28 am
    [8]
    drdog09 permalink

    The CIA should have told the army ASAP and the guy should have been court-martialed. — INC

    INC, I agree with the sentiment you express here. The details would be a tad tricky. Up until the shooting what the DoD would have had as an actionable offense would have been slim. Reports say he had attempted to contact Al Qaeda. However mere contact would be insufficient evidence. Some other event associated with it would have to occur. Did they have the goods? Don’t know yet.

    More likely the DoD would have used any number of paths to discharging him. Unsuitable to promotion, refusal to discharge orders, or even trigger the guy off and prepare him for rotation to Iraq hoping he refuses. Then discharge him.

    Bet JR could fill us in on that score.

  9. 2009 November 9 9:32 am
    [9]
    INC permalink

    You’re right, Dr. D. They would have had to have been wise–but it should and could have been done.

  10. 2009 November 9 9:38 am
    [10]
    janzam permalink

    I’m not sure what constitutes a “court-martial.” However, there were numerous incidents in which Husan’s comments were over-the-top hostile. This should have been enough justification and cause to take him out of the military population way before this incident happened.

  11. 2009 November 9 9:41 am
    [11]
    janzam permalink

    “If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance,” Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.

    Amen.

  12. 2009 November 9 9:43 am
    [12]
    INC permalink

    Good for Lieberman.

  13. 2009 November 9 9:45 am
    [13]
    INC permalink

    William Jacobson at Legal Insurrection has a great headline:

    Will The Truth Be Hasan’s Last Victim?

    No need to jump to conclusions any more, the conclusion has been reached. This was an act of domestic terrorism committed for political and religious purposes. There may have been additional factors, or something which sparked the eruption at that moment, but there is more than sufficient evidence that Hasan sympathized with al-Qaeda, and made anti-American statements, to treat this as a terrorist act.

  14. 2009 November 9 9:46 am
    [14]
    drdog09 permalink

    INC, by the way, great job on the Berlin Wall piece.

  15. 2009 November 9 9:55 am
    [15]
    drdog09 permalink

    Jan,

    Fastest thing the Army could have done was transfer him to a duty station that was isolated and had few staff till they could sort through final disposition. Like say recruiting in some small town.

  16. 2009 November 9 9:56 am
    [16]
    INC permalink

    Thanks, Dr. D. When I do those posts that are primarily videos and quotes, once I have chosen what I want to use, I spend a long time working on the order and layout–using the sequence not only for impact, but also to give voice to what I want to say even when I don’t write a word of my own.

    Sometimes there are numerous double entendres and layers of meaning and application as there were today. For example, I saw the Reagan documentary In The Face of Evil at C4P, and then I found the Elie Wiesel quote with the same phrase, in the face of evil that was used in an editorial about Obama earlier this year. I knew I had to put them both into the Berlin Wall post as my own compare and contrast.

  17. 2009 November 9 10:04 am
    [17]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    WHEN WILL OBAMA CALL IT A TERRORIST ATTACK ???

  18. 2009 November 9 10:07 am
    [18]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    Who dropped the ball ? The Army ? The FBI ? Homeland Security ?

    Certainly SOMEONE needs to get tossed under the bus.

  19. 2009 November 9 10:08 am
    [19]
    INC permalink

    Sharp, I won’t hold my breath. I think he’s hoping other news will takeover before he is forced by the evidence to do that.

    Meanwhile, we’ll have to hope that others will have the guts to say the obvious on TV as Lieberman did.

  20. 2009 November 9 10:09 am
    [20]
    INC permalink

    The Army & the FBI, CIA all did. They’re paralyzed their careers will be in jeopardy because of the PC WH in DC!!!!

  21. 2009 November 9 10:10 am
    [21]
    INC permalink

    As for DHS, Janet Napolitano was too busy trying to smear those of us who were showing up at Tea Parties to have time to be concerned about real enemies of our nation.

  22. 2009 November 9 10:16 am
    [22]
    Wylie E. Coyote permalink

    Based on actions by Obama and the wacko left this year, does ANYONE think that they will not try to ram this HC scam thru any way they can?

    I mean the whole year has been about expanding government and grabbing as much political power as they possibly can…

    This IS the biggest and most far reaching of the power grabs!!!!

    Why would they let some silly rule about budget recon stand in their way…

    Events this week that are critical to watch are if Reid will drop the public option in order to get something called HC reform out of the Senate…again, the partiticulars wont matter as long as the Filibuster is overcome and it gets to confernce committee so the real dirty tricks start…a “vapor bill” would do just as nicely for recon too (but this is the ultimate dirty trick)……

    I think lending too much credence on the articles in post #58 or other so-called experts who say this is going “nowehere” are very very dangerous at this point as we who OPPOSE this need to be taking it up a notch in protest…relaxing is EXACTLY what Obama wants…

    By CW this whole ScaryCare bill should be dead considering that it is 15-20% Negative…..add to that the NJ and VA election – should have killed it right? Nope? How about 10.2% unemployment? Nope

    Nope, it just keeps getting pushed…why? Its about power and control…ignore this at your peril or call me a “ranter” if you want but so far the evidence to date has proven me correct…

  23. 2009 November 9 10:21 am
    [23]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    http://www.memeorandum.com/

    how do we get bjg mentioned as a blog that is discussing the fact that hasan tried to contact al quaida ?

  24. 2009 November 9 10:28 am
    [24]
    Wylie E. Coyote permalink

    Malik Nidal Hasan mmmm mmm mmm…..

    Sorry, I just wanted to do that lol

    It works just as well in our favorite pre-K song (you know the one – Barack Hussein Obama mmm mmm mmm!)

    I bet this is being sung over their in Gaza schools right now lol

  25. 2009 November 9 10:30 am
    [25]

    “Certainly SOMEONE needs to get tossed under the bus.”

    How about the Sec. of the Army, the former GOP guy from ny-23, lol.

    WHEN IS THE PRESIDENT GOING MAKE A DECISION ON AFGHANISTAN?

  26. 2009 November 9 10:37 am
    [26]
    INC permalink

    KH, Hot Air:

    The officials, all of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity because they weren’t authorized to discuss internal administration planning, cautioned that Obama’s decision isn’t final, and won’t be until after administration officials discuss it with the NATO allies at a Nov. 23 meeting of the alliance’s North Atlantic Council and its Military Committee.

    He hasn’t decided what will be the best for him politically.

    He’s worse than LBJ and Vietnam.

    Although I assume you’re mimicking Eph!!!

  27. 2009 November 9 10:38 am
    [27]
    Wylie E. Coyote permalink

    #25 He made a decsion – flippin’ let the Army bleed out…..

    Just needs to be able to get politcal cover for it!

  28. 2009 November 9 10:43 am
    [28]
    INC permalink

    Sharp, I don’t know–I don’t know their criteria. I assume a lot of it has to do with blog stats.

  29. 2009 November 9 10:44 am
    [29]

    I was 😉 I knew the answer. Discuss with Nato… NATO’s already expressed their view – they are down with the McCrystal plan (course they don’t really want to contribute but they support it).

  30. 2009 November 9 10:46 am
    [30]

    “KILLEEN, Texas — The Army psychiatrist authorities say killed 13 people and wounded 29 others at the Fort Hood Army Base Thursday was a recent and frequent customer at a local strip club, employees of the club told FoxNews.com exclusively.”

    What is it with these llama and going to strip clubs before going jihadi.

  31. 2009 November 9 10:49 am
    [31]
    INC permalink

    From Jim Geraghty:

    Four Days Later, DHS Homepage Has No Mention of Fort Hood

    Smoke alarms, however, are top news–kid you not!

    In other words, judging by the DHS web site, there was no shooting on Fort Hood last Thursday. A search finds similar results.

    However, Napolitano did find time, while in Abu Dhabi, to insist that the attacks “must not lead to the victimization of Muslim Americans.”

    Hey, how about a word or two about the victimization of Americans, period? That is your job, is it not, Madame Secretary?

    UPDATE: The FBI and Department of Justice web sites have nothing on Fort Hood; DOD is, unsurprisingly, full of information.

    This is beyond despicable.

  32. 2009 November 9 10:49 am
    [32]

  33. 2009 November 9 10:50 am
    [33]
    INC permalink

    KH, I dunno, maybe they think that last jihad will absolve all sins.

  34. 2009 November 9 10:54 am
    [34]
    INC permalink

    For the record, I’d like to enter the definition of treason from our Constitution:

    Article III, Section 3 – Treason:

    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

  35. 2009 November 9 10:55 am
    [35]
    INC permalink

    Talk about black humor from The Onion!

    They must be on the DHS extremists list–the Onion, not the community organizers!

  36. 2009 November 9 11:00 am
    [36]
    drdog09 permalink

    New profiling plan —

    When you show up at the strip club they stamp your hand based on your religious preferences. Those that get stamped with the crescent are ushered to a private room with all the amenities. The FBI quietly shows up and haul them off…..

  37. 2009 November 9 11:03 am
    [37]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    INC, i dont even know how to do a trackback, ping, or a tag. i need to learn all that stuff. i would not think ” jamie wearing fool” has a huge traffic base but then what do i know.

  38. 2009 November 9 11:06 am
    [38]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    yeah the devout muslim visits strip clubs

  39. 2009 November 9 11:09 am
    [39]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    jihad is a GUARANTEED ticket to paradise. the ONLY guarantee. for others it’s up to allah with his scale of what you did good versus what you did bad.

    soooo strip club ? no problem.

  40. 2009 November 9 11:13 am
    [40]
    INC permalink

    Sharp, the number of commenters don’t indicate the stats. Jammie is an excellent blog and is quoted frequently.

    I have to run. More later. Only a blog post will trackback or ping, but any comment can do a link.

  41. 2009 November 9 11:13 am
    [41]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    How about the Sec. of the Army, the former GOP guy from ny-23, lol. -KH

    why can’t obama just toss HIMSELF under the Obamabus ? Personal Jihad, take one for the team ? CIA/FBI/SECRET SERVICE- I mean no harm to our President, I hope he lives long and prospers. I just disagree with his policies.

  42. 2009 November 9 11:14 am
    [42]
    Sharp2edgedsword permalink

    why dont we have a blogroll ?

  43. 2009 November 9 11:16 am
    [43]

    They do, click home, look down the right side.

  44. 2009 November 9 11:16 am
    [44]

    scratch that … just look on the right side.

  45. 2009 November 9 11:33 am
    [45]
    janzam permalink

    O/T

    It is now certain that Charlie Crist will get a run for his money in Florida. The Club for Growth is today announcing its endorsement of Marco Rubio in the Florida Senate race.

    They’ll bundle a lot of money for Marco making this an extremely competitive primary. Charlie Crist’s no good, rotten, very awful week just keeps getting worse.

    “The Club for Growth PAC has spent months studying this race, and we have concluded that either Charlie Crist or Marco Rubio would be heavily favored to win next November against likely Democratic nominee Kendrick Meek,” Chris Chocola, President of the Club for Growth, said. “The only question now is what kind of Republican will Florida send to Washington next year: a pro-growth Republican with a record of fiscal conservatism or a big-government Republican with a record of tax increases?”

    H/T Red State

  46. 2009 November 9 11:33 am
    [46]
    bc3b permalink

    “Fastest thing the Army could have done was transfer him to a duty station that was isolated and had few staff till they could sort through final disposition. Like say recruiting in some small town.”

    When I was in the Air Force, the guys and gals in the computer section disliked their NCOIC so much that they coded him as a volunteer for Greenland. Sure enough, he got PCS orders a few weeks later.

  47. 2009 November 9 11:39 am
    [47]
    janzam permalink

    Good anecdotal story, bc.

  48. 2009 November 9 11:42 am
    [48]
    bc3b permalink

    “As for DHS, Janet Napolitano was too busy trying to smear those of us who were showing up at Tea Parties to have time to be concerned about real enemies of our nation.” – INC.

    Janet is taking the politically correct approach. See Drudge. AP story cannot be posted here.

  49. 2009 November 9 11:43 am
    [49]
    drdog09 permalink

    BC, That’s funny. Sounds like something I would do… 🙂

  50. 2009 November 9 11:44 am
    [50]
    bc3b permalink

    Janzam –

    It’s true. The NCOIC didn’t complain because he was afraid he might get sent to Nam instead, so he packed his bags for Greenland.

  51. 2009 November 9 11:54 am
    [51]
    bc3b permalink

    drdog09 –

    The group I was assigned to was known as the F-Troop of the Air Force. The title fit to a tee.

    We had a guy nobody liked. Whenever he took a shower, this guy from Louisiana went around flushing all the toilets. We had two “bros” who decided to rob the NCO Club. One had been discharged earlier that day (and you are subject to the UCMJ for 48 hours after discharge). So, they got caught and he was tried under the UCMJ (basically guilty until proven innocent – unless you’re Muslim). The “bros” got a vacation in Levenworth.

    I was a back-up general’s driver. We had 22 generals and an admiral at Wright-Patt. The APEs (air police) loved to pimp the generals asking to see their ID when entering the airfield area. The would never ask for the drivers. When the general would ask why, they’d always say, “Oh, we know the airman.”

  52. 2009 November 9 11:58 am
    [52]

    THREAD THIS FOLKS:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/09/ap-public-option-is-dead/

    HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  53. 2009 November 9 12:02 pm
    [53]
    Wylie E. Coyote permalink

    #52 Again, SO WHAT…..the Government Option is a very minimal part of the takeover…..

    As I have said, it was always a diversion for both left and right plus was bargined away for Health Insurance lobby support….

    Its no victory for conservatives if “the public option is dead” as the rest of ScaryCare is the takeover….

    To put this out as if we have defeated the takeover is foolish and misleading…..

  54. 2009 November 9 12:06 pm
    [54]

    {ot}
    Prejean sex tape apparently coming to an internet near you soon.

  55. 2009 November 9 12:07 pm
    [55]
    drdog09 permalink

    Huh? Do we really need to know someone’s motivation to murder? Looks like that is the case for WaPo.

  56. 2009 November 9 12:09 pm
    [56]

    52 – Some wishful thinking in that piece.

  57. 2009 November 9 12:11 pm
    [57]

    Love that title “Authorities scrutinize links between Fort Hood suspect, imam said to back al-Qaeda”
    ….
    First thought: A little late.
    Second thought: Probably just duplicating work already done months before.

  58. 2009 November 9 1:21 pm
    [58]
    phineas gage permalink

    This silliness will only be correct by catastrophic tragedy.

    And perhaps not even then.

    Liberalism is indeed a mental disorder.

  59. 2009 November 9 1:22 pm
    [59]
    phineas gage permalink

    ‘corrected’

  60. 2009 November 9 1:35 pm
    [60]
    beej permalink

    However mere contact would be insufficient evidence.
    ~~~~~~~~~~

    An officer trying to contact AQ is not sufficient evidence that something is wrong?? On what planet???? Contacting the enemy is not a problem in and of itself in the armed services that are actively engaged in fighting tooth and nail and blood and lives?

    omg. up is down, in is out, rain is dry. everything right is now wrong.

  61. 2009 November 9 2:19 pm
    [61]
    mpthompson permalink

    I’m not a “gun” person, but I found this article interesting: Thank Goodness for ‘Cop Killer’ Weapons. Perhaps some with experience can tell if the conjecture raised in the article is valid or not with regards to weapon Major Hasan chose to use.

  62. 2009 November 9 2:42 pm
    [62]
    drdog09 permalink

    An officer trying to contact AQ is not sufficient evidence that something is wrong?? On what planet???? Contacting the enemy is not a problem in and of itself in the armed services that are actively engaged in fighting tooth and nail and blood and lives? — beej

    beej, that there is something wrong? Sure. That there is something actionable that you can bring charges? Maybe, maybe not.

  63. 2009 November 9 3:41 pm
    [63]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    The article is correct imo, mpt. Give me a .45 any day, over the popguns.

    The same behavior, ie overpenetration and insufficient wound channels which many group together under the euphamism “stopping power”, have been cited in 9mm luger and .223/5.56 ar-15/m-16 rifle the army uses.

    The whole idea of a bullet as a defense tool is to apply a massive sledgehammer blow to the assailant. Penetration is, imo, less of an issue, because slice wounds are more survivable and reparable, overall less tramatic, than crush wounds.

    Your mileage may vary. Although you will certainly get “stopping power” from your 7.62/.30cal rifle rounds and your .40 and .45 pistol rounds, and I prefer them, it is also critical that a shooter obtain good shot placement. One center of mass hit is better than 4 or more non-critical wounds.

    If you are able to achieve good shot placement, then the smaller caliber weapons are quite effective too. And their ammo is cheaper and more widely available. and the reduced recoil when firing contributes to accuracy.

    It’s all a tradeoff.

    The .357magnum revolver than the guy used in addition to the five-seven is a very formidable weapon, using a caliber similar to that of the 9mm but with a much more expanding and heavier grain bullet, with a lot more powder behind it. .357mag rounds are nearly twice as long as the 9mm (19mm) and look like rifle bullets in comparison. And they are very formidable.

    The 5-7 rounds are 40 grains each, comparable to .22 rounds, they can be lethal with good placement, but will be far less lethal than the .357mag rounds.

    they will wound, but are less likely to kill.

    my 5c….

  64. 2009 November 9 4:39 pm
    [64]
    drdog09 permalink

    I thought the whole idea of the .223 round was not to knock the OPFOR down but to cause as much bleeding as possible so as to cause incapacitating wounds. The point being that the treatment costs escalate post battle. Sounds good in theory.

    My take is if I am going to face a uniform then I am going for head shots. I don’t know what they have under the outerwear.

  65. 2009 November 9 5:00 pm
    [65]
    gnqanq permalink

    drdog – what they found out in Korea was that for every one wounded, it would require 2 or 3 to take care of the wounded (get them out of the zone). Thus more emphasis on wounds vs killing. Takes more resources to care for the wounded than a dead body.

    A friend of mine told me that each year more people die from 22 wounds than other rounds. A 22 in most cases will enter but leave the body. It will bounce around tearing up your insides. In many cases doing more damage than a larger round that will just rip right through you. Unless it is a hollow point or similar round which will rip you up big time.

  66. 2009 November 9 5:12 pm
    [66]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    Dog, and Gn, you’re right about the .223 being a tumbler, and concept being to wound not kill, but a couple factors:

    1 reports from Iraq theater indicate poor penetration of walls and obstacles by .223 round, thus placing US troops at a tactical disadvantage when opposing insurgents armed with AKs, which have horrible accuracy but are more dangerous in house to house fighting…

    2 UN regs have apparently watered down the effectiveness of the tumbler concept by forcing signatories to modify rounds for more gentlemanly fighting, leading of course, to more US troops killed. Not confirmed but a popular conversation piece when talking calibers. This applies to US troops’ pistol rounds too, as they are forbidden from using expanding ammo and limited to ball rounds for their 9mm pistols, which overpenetrate, necessitating more hits per target..

    3. modern assymetric warfare is often conducted by fighters that do not slow down for wounded troops negating the intent of the tumbling design.

    4. less momentum striking target from smaller rounds have led to notable risks to US troops lives, ie, the story of one sergeant going hand to hand with an echo charlie ( 😀 ) despite hitting him 4x center of mass with 223 rounds. The ec was so jacked up on stimulants he was not dropped by the wounds, in fact he was able to engage a soldier hand to hand after being struck.

    Now, many have said the soldiers were ditching the .223 rifle for the .308 or 6.8spc and the 9mm pistol for the .45, and many no doubt have, but most have not, from what I have heard.

    Most just concentrate on shot placement and enjoy the light weight of the mags….

  67. 2009 November 9 5:16 pm
    [67]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    Although the .223 lacks range and is more affected by wind than the .308 round, it is still a reliable killer.

    Get a .308, and a .223 as your backup weap… 🙂

  68. 2009 November 9 5:32 pm
    [68]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    Somalia, if you’ve read “Black Hawk Down”, was more of an indictment of the .223 round than Iraq would be, if what the book says is true.

    The “sammies” (Aidid’s fighters) were under the influence of locally popular drugs and proved very difficult to bring down with the .223 round, while a single Delta force soldier with his pre-Vietnam 30 cal m14 rifle was more efficient in battle.

  69. 2009 November 9 5:37 pm
    [69]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    I would confidently take a 9mm pistol and .223 rifle into a fight. But, if I had the choice of those, or a .308 rifle and .45, I’d take the latter. The recoil of a 308 does not bother me. The men who used these larger weapons in battle were all smaller than I am, and they did fine.

    But many would disagree.

  70. 2009 November 9 5:37 pm
    [70]
    rightwingyahoo permalink

    other than that, bla.

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.