Mitch Daniels Getting Ripped

2010 October 17
by drdog09

On his tax proposals. —

The potential presidential candidate’s already rocky path to the Republican nomination became more treacherous this weekend after the country’s most powerful anti-tax activist and one of the House’s most respected fiscal conservatives disparaged Daniels’ openness to considering a controversial value added tax as part of a larger tax system overhaul.

“This is outside the bounds of acceptable modern Republican thought, and it is only the zone of extremely left-wing Democrats who publicly talk about those things because all Democrats pretending to be moderates wouldn’t touch it with a 10-foot poll,” Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist told POLITICO. “Absent some explanation, such as large quantities of crystal meth, this is disqualifying. This is beyond the pale.”

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Now VAT as a layer on top of the existing progressive income tax system would be totally insane both politically and fiscally. It would be a dead letter before Daniels had the ink dried on the paper. But is the idea so far fetched if you tweaked it? Keep in mind that the progressives believe that the more you make the more you should pay. While the Reps generally align with the idea of a minimum number of rates with a cap. On top of that difference also consider that for taxation the devil is in the details and specifically the rates.

But there is a way that Daniels suggestion could fly. Its a two tiered system —

  • A flat rate across the board, from $1 of income to $100k, @ 5% say.
  • A VAT rate, on new item purchases only, from $50k to infinity, @ 8% say.
  • No tax on business except in the last year when a business folds.
  • All rates are adjusted every 5 years.
  • The current progressive tax system phases out.

As much as one might chafe at the bit about the VAT being a thorn and sop to the progressives; I hate to say it but you won’t get anything else to fly without them for the next two years. In the House the GOP would need to get to 220-222 to have a buffer for a Presidential override. The GOP will get far short of that number so they will need to find 30 or so Democrats to play ball and ‘Tax the Rich’ is all they know. The VAT is their bone, to get their votes. Now the VAT being expense oriented would only kick in when purchase is made so the more frugal of us would save that tax. It would also encourage savings if that tax was eliminated as well.

Its by no means perfect. But it would be a heck of alot better than we have right now.

65 Responses leave one →
  1. 2010 October 17 12:19 pm
    judyt2009 permalink

    LOL… no tax on business except in the last year when the business folds?

    LOL…gee, I might not know anything about private business as I have only been working with private sector businesses for 36 years… but generally when a business folds it is because…IT IS OUT OF MONEY!!!!

    So only in Democrat la la land can a cash flow poor, EBITDA negative, pull money out of its rear to pay taxes..

    Sorry… but if there is a tax on the sale of a business, a tax when there is a merger of two businesses for the value of the acquired business I could understand…. but then again there would be all kinds of loopholes appearing on the horizon to circumvent a business transfer of ownership tax.

  2. 2010 October 17 12:24 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    Thinking about this a minute there is one modification I would make. The rate adjustments would only occur every 4 years the same year that midterm elections occur. You raise the rate, you do so are your own peril politician.

  3. 2010 October 17 12:25 pm
    justrand permalink

    the problem with a VAT or any other new tax scheme is that it will be in ADDITION to what we already have.

    Congress is exactly like a heroin addict.

  4. 2010 October 17 12:38 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    LOL… no tax on business except in the last year when the business folds?

    Exactly! 🙂 Part of course would depend on what you consider a business ‘death’. To my mind a M&A would be a business death. You merge GTE and Bell Atlantic to make Verizon, the taxman cometh. You divest Delphi AT&T he cometh again. Which of course you mention Judy.

    The one other reason to trigger the tax is, like it is already, the feds get their hands in the till first if there are any assets. When the lawyers sit down and see that the only hand that is getting fed is the feds, well the bankruptcy is pretty cut and dried. Messiest bankruptcy I ever saw was because there were known residuals with value.

    But I would expect the govt gets little in a simple bankruptcy with no assets. As to the loopholes, well you know, that’s when we should be raking the Pols over the coals. If you want a simple tax code you have to keep it that way. One could always put a poison pill in the code that if it is modified the rates go up 300%, with maybe an agreed 3/4ths of the States concurring to not trip the trigger.

  5. 2010 October 17 12:40 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    Just, you are being kind. I think Congress is the dope dealer AND the addict.

  6. 2010 October 17 12:53 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    June Cleaver aka Barbara Billingsley dies at 94. There goes my childhood.

  7. 2010 October 17 1:02 pm
    justrand permalink

    still, this was Barbara Billingsley’s greatest role!

  8. 2010 October 17 1:02 pm
    JustMary permalink

    A VAT rate, on new item purchases only, from $50k to infinity, @ 8% say.

    In place of, or on top of state sales tax? In CA we pay 10%, which would mean 18% tax!

  9. 2010 October 17 1:59 pm
    bc3b permalink

    JR is right. If the VAT (or a flat tax) were to replace the income tax it would be worth considering, but this would be an additional tax.

    Mitch Daniels is one of the ABS (Anybody but Sarah) candidates promoted by the establishment and elites. David Brooks was pushing him last week.

  10. 2010 October 17 2:02 pm
    mpthompson permalink

    the problem with a VAT or any other new tax scheme is that it will be in ADDITION to what we already have.

    Exactly. BTW, ask the folks in the UK how quickly promises to never raise the VAT above a certain amount are forgotten. This is one camels nose I never want to see under the tent.

  11. 2010 October 17 3:18 pm
    TLS permalink

    Check this out:

    Added postage needed for votes by mail
    Ballots will require 78-cents to reach county registrar’s office

    Alameda County voters have so many races and measures to vote on in the Nov. 2 election that they will have to include additional postage if they are voting by mail, according to the county’s registrar of voters.

    Vote-by-mail ballots in the county will require 78 cents worth of postage because of the multiple ballot cards from the various local, state and federal races and measures.

    The launch of ranked-choice voting in Berkeley, Oakland and San Leandro for this election means voters in those communities will receive three ballot cards, while voters in all other cities and unincorporated parts of the county will receive two ballot cards.

    Multiple ballot cards are also required in several neighboring counties as well, according to the registrar of voters.


  12. 2010 October 17 3:39 pm
    mpthompson permalink

    Across the bay in San Mateo County my absentee ballot is two ballot cards and weighs in at 3/4 ounce so a single stamp should do it. The envelope simply says “Use Sufficient Postage” where the stamp goes. A third ballot card may indeed push it over one ounce.

  13. 2010 October 17 3:44 pm
    drdog09 permalink


    In place of the current progressive income tax.

    You would pay a flat 5% on income. 8% on what you spend.

    By the way folks, as much as there is a gnashing of teeth, the 1099 MISC that was passed by the ObamaCare bill sets that up. Once the government has the data flowing in, its but a hop, skip and jump to implement a VAT.

  14. 2010 October 17 4:07 pm

    Mitch, keep your VAT idea’s to yourself all they will do is encourage the left to say see GOP supports VAT, always leaving out the replacement not in addition too part.
    fairtax please, stop basing our tax system on “income”.

  15. 2010 October 17 4:16 pm
    JBoz permalink

    JR #8. “Jive ass dude don’t got no brains anyhow!”

    Almost like she was peering 30 years into the future.

  16. 2010 October 17 4:16 pm
    JustMary permalink


    I don’t understand. If the envelope says no postage necessary, shouldn’t they be legally bound to deliver it? Shouldn’t someone be held responsible for this- other than the voter?

  17. 2010 October 17 4:24 pm
    TLS permalink

    #17 Indeed JM. I’ve worked with mass pre-paid mailers and we had people tape the envelop to a brick and it got delivered at our expense.

  18. 2010 October 17 4:42 pm
    bc3b permalink

    TLS –

    I did that to the New York Times.

  19. 2010 October 17 4:46 pm
    justrand permalink

    Remember, when calling Democrat Voters to “GOTV”, let them know that all voting must be by mail…and $8.12 worth of postage is required on each ballot…AND that the law requires they ALL be $.01 stamps.

  20. 2010 October 17 4:53 pm
    JustMary permalink

    #20 LOL!!!

  21. 2010 October 17 4:54 pm
    JustMary permalink

    #18 Are you serious??? WOW!

  22. 2010 October 17 5:01 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    A brick. Hmmm. What about a box of maggots? There are a few direct mail folks I would like to send THAT to!

  23. 2010 October 17 5:14 pm
    gnqanq permalink

    The only way to even propose a VAT tax is with a constitutional amendment to replace the 16th with a VAT.

  24. 2010 October 17 5:41 pm

    gnqanq permalink

    The only way to even propose a VAT tax is with a constitutional amendment to replace the 16th with a VAT.

    I don’t think so, as they already have the power to levy taxes any way and where they please. A federal sales tAx (vat) would already be covered by the constitution.

  25. 2010 October 17 6:00 pm
    drdog09 permalink

    “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.” — 16th Amend.

    “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States” — Sec 8, Constitution.

    IP I dunno, GN raises a pretty good question. The body of the Constitution is very generic, while the 16th narrows it down. So does the 16th represent a restraint that these are the only kind of taxes? Or does the Sec 8 still apply implying all forms of taxes and means other Taxes can be added? Get 9 SCOTUS judges in a room and I bet you get a 5-4 decision. 🙂

  26. 2010 October 17 6:01 pm
    gnqanq permalink

    ip – they may or may not have the ability to enact a VAT tax. The key is NOT to allow them to do it without repeal of the 16th amendment. The GOP should be in lock step on that one point, That we never ever allow a VAT tax without repeal.

  27. 2010 October 17 6:18 pm

    They are truley insane

  28. 2010 October 17 6:33 pm
    justrand permalink

    just over two weeks to go, folks. Gut-check time.

    Donate time & money to take our country back…or at least slow the mad rush over the cliff.

    Time is what the campaigns need now more than money. Volunteer to GOTV…or whatever. and volunteer to poll-watch if you are near a district where that will help!

    Hold fast!

  29. 2010 October 17 6:43 pm
    mulletover permalink

    Manchin is running as far away from Obama as he can. The problem he has is what he said before he started running. He is on record as supporting Obamacare and versions of Cap n Trade, both of which West Virginians hate. His half-assed efforts at suing the feds for mountain-top removal methods are a day late and a dollar short.

    After 100 years of the Grand Kleagle, West Virginia needs to turn red.

  30. 2010 October 17 6:45 pm
    mulletover permalink

    It is beyond stupid to have both a progressive income tax and a regressive value-added tax.

    I don’t know about the Constitution, but that combination is an economy killer.

  31. 2010 October 17 6:55 pm
    janzam permalink

    A lot of people have been griping about the choices for Lt. Governor here in CA —> either Newsom or Maldonado. I was just listening to Barbara Simpson here in SF and she had a woman on, Karen England, who is running as a write-in candidate for Lt. Governor. She is a teaparty person, a self-described social/fiscal conservative who is giving a late run at this office. Here is her official web site:

    Karen England for California

    ….something to think about as an alternative candidate —> JM, Justrand, Bruce and any others. My husband has, unfortunately, already voted absentee. But, I haven’t, and am going to write her name in, as I was unhappy with Maldonado as the R candidate.

  32. 2010 October 17 7:13 pm


    You’re from SF???? Well that explains a lot!! LOL


  33. 2010 October 17 7:19 pm
    TLS permalink

    Jan, my husband and I already voted absentee and we both wrote in Karen England. I also recommended her to everyone in my political sphere.

  34. 2010 October 17 7:22 pm
    justrand permalink

    Karen England it is!

    Mrs. Justrand and I will both do so!

  35. 2010 October 17 7:26 pm
    justrand permalink

    Anecdotal…living here in the S.F. Bay Area I have seen ZERO “Boxer for Senate” signs. NONE…ZILCH…NADA.

    But quite a few “Carly” signs (there’s one in my yard, of course)

    doesn’t mean the drones won’t vote for her…just means they’re neither eager nor proud about it!

    If you know anyone in California plead with them to rid of us this scourge called “Boxer”.

  36. 2010 October 17 7:28 pm
    drdog09 permalink


    Be careful! Jan has lived behind enemy lines for years. She has claws that will rip your heart out and serve it as red meat conservatism on a platter. But other than that she’s a kitten.

  37. 2010 October 17 7:29 pm


    Therer are NO conservatives left in CA. Only liberals and moderates. The rest have left the state already.

  38. 2010 October 17 7:34 pm

    37. I fear no RINOs !!!!

  39. 2010 October 17 7:39 pm
    janzam permalink


    I have homes in both southern and northern CA. Our business and family ties are in the southern part. However, my husband and I are leaning towards N. California because of the rural nature of living near a community with a pop of less than 500. But, if you live anywhere in CA you are outnumbered by liberals, and as drdog indicated have to develop a tough skin when it comes to politics.

    Kudos to you TLS for knowing about Karen England. I wish I had knowledge beforehand to redirect my husband’s vote. It was exciting to have an option, other than the pathetic candidates running!

  40. 2010 October 17 7:40 pm
    mulletover permalink

    No cheerleaders for Eph??

  41. 2010 October 17 7:45 pm

    41. None. Todays selection was pathetic. No “toe” whatsoever

  42. 2010 October 17 7:47 pm

    Though Lila Rose was on “I Want Your Money” so life is good!

  43. 2010 October 17 7:52 pm

  44. 2010 October 17 8:21 pm
    booshkindoggin permalink

    I’ll write-in Karen England too. I despise Maldonado and want him out of politics forever – which I think is very doable BTW, but voting for the awful Gavin Newsome would be unthinkable.

  45. 2010 October 17 8:40 pm
    JustMary permalink

    #35 Mr. Justmary and I will write her in as well.

  46. 2010 October 17 8:45 pm
    bc3b permalink

    I had this as the first comment for Eph on today’s football thread, but I guess he didn’t see it.

    I figured the HS girls wouldn’t do much for him.

    Lots of upsets. I’m glad I wasn’t among those who picked the Cowgirls to win the SB. Saints are bad enough.

  47. 2010 October 17 8:50 pm
    bc3b permalink

    I listened to the stream of the Murray-Rossi debate. Neither was very impressive. Patty Murray is dumb … and I’m talking Joe Biden-dumb. Rossi kept ducking the questions – DADT, the Dream Act, what he would cut if elected, etc.

  48. 2010 October 17 8:56 pm

  49. 2010 October 17 9:25 pm


    You should re-name this site:

    No wonder why most of the folks here are so mad.

    I used to be like that too, then I left NY forever!

  50. 2010 October 17 9:27 pm


    Exactly why I havent really paid any attention to what any of these candidates are saying.

    And exactly why I wont give a dime to the GOP.

  51. 2010 October 17 9:28 pm
    JustMary permalink

    Eph- we will not be Californians past next year. 😀

  52. 2010 October 17 9:35 pm

    The eyes of texacas be upon ye. 🙂

  53. 2010 October 17 9:46 pm

    You might be a freight dog if…

    • Your airplane was getting old when you were born.
    • You have not done a daylight landing in the past six months.
    • ATC advises you of smoother air at a different altitude, and you don’t give a shit.
    • When you taxi up to an FBO they roll out the red carpet, but quickly take it back when they recognize you.
    • You call the hotel van to pick you up and they don’t understand where you are on the airport.
    • Center asks you to “keep the chickens down” so they can hear you talk.
    • Your airplane has more than 75,000 cycles.
    • Your company call sign is “Oil Can”.
    • The lady at the FBO locks up the popcorn machine because you plan on “making a meal of it”.
    • Your airplane has more than eight faded logos on it.
    • You wear the same shirt for a week, and no one complains.
    • Center mispronounces your call sign more than three times in one flight.
    • Your Director of Operations mysteriously changes your max. take off weight during the holiday season.
    • Every FBO makes you park out of sight of their building.
    • You have ever walked barefoot through the FBO, ……………………………… because you just woke up.
    • You mark every ramp with engine oil.
    • Everything you own is in you flight bag and suitcase.
    • All the other pilots wait for you to “test the squall line” first.
    • All the other airlines hold to see if you get in.
    • You request the visual approach with 300’ overcast and ½ SM vis.
    • You make no attempt to deviate around weather.

  54. 2010 October 18 12:35 am
    drdog09 permalink

    You might be a freight dog if…

    … The AF Mech says Radial 8 and you know instantly he is not talking about tires.

    … ATC barometric announcements tend to get your attention.

    … A ‘stick shaker’ is something you associate with a martini, no olive.

    … Drunks on a plane are no reasons to divert a flight as you already are.

    and the pic is perfect!

  55. 2010 October 18 5:42 am
    MI Conservative permalink

    A Different Slant On The Obama Presidency

    One 82-year-old lady “loves” Obama. She may have a very good point. She says that Obama is amazing, and is rebuilding the American dream! She gives us an entirely new slant on the “amazing” job Obama is doing, and she says that she will thank God for the President. Keep reading for her additional comments and an explanation.

    When discussing Obama, she says:

    1. Obama destroyed the Clinton Political Machine, driving a stake through the heart of Hillary’s presidential aspirations – something no Republican was ever able to do.

    2. Obama killed off the Kennedy Dynasty – no more Kennedys trolling Washington looking for booze and women wanting rides home.

    3. Obama is destroying the Democratic Party before our eyes! Dennis Moore had never lost a race. Evan Bayh had never lost a race. Byron Dorgan had never lost a race. These are just a handful of the Democrats whose political careers Obama has destroyed. By the end of 2010, dozens more will be gone. In December of 2008 the Democrats were on the rise. In the last two election cycles, they had picked up 14 Senate seats and 52 House seats. The press was touting the death of the Conservative Movement and the Republican Party. However, in just one year, Obama put a stop to all of this and will probably give the House – if not the Senate – back to the Republicans.

    4. Obama has completely exposed liberals and progressives for what they are. Sadly, every generation seems to need to re-learn the lesson on why they should never actually put liberals in charge. Obama is bringing home the lesson very well:
    Liberals tax, borrow and spend.
    Liberals won’t bring themselves to protect America .
    Liberals want to take over the economy.
    Liberals think they know what is best for everyone.
    Liberals are not happy until they are running YOUR life.

    5. Obama has brought more Americans back to conservatism than anyone since Reagan. In one year, he has rejuvenated the Conservative Movement and brought out to the streets millions of freedom-loving Americans. Name one other time when you saw your friends and neighbors this interested in taking back America !

    6. Obama, with his “amazing leadership,” has sparked the greatest period of sales of firearms and ammunition this country has seen. Law abiding citizens have rallied and have provided a “stimulus” to the sporting goods field while other industries have failed, faded, or moved off-shore.

    7. One year ago I was more afraid than I have been in my life. Not afraid of the economy, but afraid of the direction our country was going. I thought, Americans have forgotten what this country is all about. My neighbors and friends, even strangers, have proved to me that my lack of confidence in the greatness and wisdom of the American people has been flat wrong.

    8. When the American people wake up, no smooth talking teleprompter reader can fool them! Barack Obama has served to wake up these great Americans!

    Thank you, Barack Obama! After all, this is exactly the kind of hope and change we desperately needed!!

  56. 2010 October 18 5:43 am

    Great additions to the list. is mutley an aviator per chance??

  57. 2010 October 18 6:18 am
    drdog09 permalink

    Was IP. Private Pilot ticket. But I have not had my hands on the controls in over a decade.

  58. 2010 October 18 6:30 am

    Cool. keep the blue side up.

  59. 2010 October 18 6:54 am


    Can I use that pic for my next Gravatar??? hahahahhahhahaha

  60. 2010 October 18 7:10 am
    mulletover permalink

    “Cool. keep the blue side up.”

    I keep the dark side up.

  61. 2010 October 18 7:23 am
    justrand permalink

    MIC, great comment #56

    IP, great photo #54 (still, you being a pilot I would have expected there to be an airplane in that photo 🙂 )

  62. 2010 October 18 7:28 am
    mulletover permalink

    JR could not be a pilot because of an eye infraction.

    He cannot see past the denim.

  63. 2010 October 18 7:33 am
    justrand permalink

    I saw past the denim…but then got, uh, distracted! 🙂

  64. 2010 October 18 7:37 am

    63. LMAO!

    me too

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